Curse

Overnite · Nov 29, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

IF THIS WERE AM MMORPG (WHICH IT IS NOT) YOU WOULD BE CORRECT.

What is it then ? A Third Person Shooter ?

Well, it will actually become one, once they get rid of the character growth which happens to be the only "core" RPG element in this game...

Takeko Nakano · Nov 29, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

SINCE IT WAS STATED THAT THE LEVEL CAP WAS A MAJOR GAME DESIGN DONT EXPECT THEM TO CHANGE IT SOON IF AT ALL

Absolutely, don't wait for something that isn't going to happen.

But imagine if they did raise the level cap. What happens if you got to level 40, or level 60? Would you ask the cap to be raised to level 80? There's always a ceiling somewhere in this kind of game. That's why only having eight skills is great - choosing the right ones makes or breaks your character. Your level has little to do with it.

Sir Skullcrasher · Nov 29, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Skills make the players..... Levels make you have ego!

Higher level will not statsified anyone here in Guild Wars.. heck i seen people asking for 80 or higher cap.

Loviatar · Nov 29, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir skulkcrasher

Skills make the players..... Levels make you have ego!

.

you have spoken truth.

on several sites one of the crys of anguish is *HOW WILL PEOPLE KNOW I AM BETTER WITHOUT THE HIGHER LEVEL NUMBER*?

unfortunately that is not a joke.

i know several whose entire ego rests on being at the top of the level heap just to squash lower level people to satisify their ego.

i should say USED to know as they stopped being any fun for even going out for a cup of coffee let alone dinner

MSecorsky · Nov 29, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

There are very few skills to "acquire" after level 20. Is that supposed to make up for lack of real tangible rewards?

It takes longer to acquire NON elite skills than it does elites. In addition, a fair amount of those "elites" are actually not worth the trouble to capture, and most are just slightly modded normal skills.

Capping elites isn't much of a reward for ascending and reaching level 20.

That's only because your brainstem is deeply lodged in the Diabloesque levelling paradigm. For me, it's plenty. Once I hit level 20, hey, no more level issues! It's great! It's more of a challenge to acquire the new skills, with the cost of purchasing them, than it is to level.

Loviatar · Nov 29, 2005, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overnite

What is it then ? A Third Person Shooter ?

Well, it will actually become one, once they get rid of the character growth which happens to be the only "core" RPG element in this game...

here is the official answer.

Quote:

Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game). Guild Wars was designed from the ground up to create the best possible competitive role-playing experience

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Guild Wars has some similarities to existing MMORPGs, but it also has some key differences. Like existing MMOs, Guild Wars is played entirely online in a secure hosted environment.

Quote:

This design eliminates some of the frustrating gameplay elements commonly associated with MMOs, such as spawn camping, loot stealing, and standing in a queue in order to complete a quest.

Mordakai · Nov 29, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Because the White Mantle weren't evil, they were trying to save the world from the Titans, under the guidance of the Mursaat, until you wrecked everything.

Excellent point.

And here's where I'll go off on a tangent, and descibe what I'd like to see in Chapter 2:

More "open-ended" gameplay. Give me some choices, with consequences for my actions. How would this work in a CORPG?

Simple. Once you choose a path, your "instances" would change. When you join with other people, the instance would reflect the majorities' "storyline". (Does this make sense?)

Mordakai · Nov 29, 2005, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank The Tank

I guess that's why WoW is so hugely successful (and still growing) & why GW is at a low point now.

IMHO a MMORPG is not for the casual gamer and should not be designed as such.

There is a lot to fix now before the expansion hits, or it may DOA.

WoW is huge because of it's Blizzard fan base. It's simply not fair to compare the new, unique Guild War experience, to a Blizzard Franchise that has not put on one unsucessful product.

That said, I will NEVER, EVER pay a monthly fee for a game. That's just my deal, obviously, but I believe enough people share my views that Guild Wars will do just fine.

I, for one, plan on getting Chapter 2 as soon as it comes out. Then we'll look at the numbers and see how "DOA" it is....

Theos · Nov 29, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Because the White Mantle weren't evil, they were trying to save the world from the Titans, under the guidance of the Mursaat, until you wrecked everything.

The mantle were not evil in the "i want to destroy the world" idea, they were evil to "us" in that they wished to cast out the old gods. The mursaat wanted to be the gods of "our" world, as they apperantly did with the seer's world. Yes they were blocking the titans but they were doing it in a vile manner, maybe there was no other option but we never find out.
The shining blade were also not evil, they opposed the idea of sacrificing individuals for an unknown cause.

In the end we, the players, were caught between two equally screwed sides and ended up picking the lesser of two evils. That might have been the down fall of the story (not looking at the weird introduction of the mursaat), the opposing sides and factions were extremly confusing and the change was far to rapid from one side to the other. Had they perhaps added more about the mursaat while you were with Dorian then the loose ends might have been tied. As it is now though it is a very loose and open ended story... with a major fraction in its integrity... but I still love it anyway

Holy Bladefire · Nov 29, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

[Originally Posted by Frank The Tank
I guess that's why WoW is so hugely successful (and still growing) & why GW is at a low point now.

IMHO a MMORPG is not for the casual gamer and should not be designed as such.

There is a lot to fix now before the expansion hits, or it may DOA.

To patently claim that MMORPG should not cater to the casual gamer is a very poor statement to make. Guild Wars is perhaos the only MMORPG that is designed to allow the casual gamer to have an entertaining time playing a game that offers unique and captivating gameplay. For example I have played the game for 5 months, have not even reached 200 hours playing. I play when I feel like it, complete missions, enjoy the story and partiicpating in anything my guild needs help in. I am sorry if unlike the "elite" I don't sit in front of my computer 18 hours a day just to get that Fissure armor, or become filthy rich with pretend money. Casual players should not be punished for not putting in 1000 hours of gamelplay a month. Some of us live in the real world with jobs, kids, and mortgages. It may be a strange concept to some of you but we play just to have a good time and be entertained. GW is one of the few games that does cater to us casual gamers. If that is a problem to some of you... go AFK step outside your dark, little room and experience the real world for a little bit. Oh, and take a shower!

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 29, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Funny - ANet's own website claims it's a MMORPG. It's marketed as a MMORPG without monthly fees. It PLAYS like a MMORPG but simply instanced - instanced to reduce bandwidth and server costs.

You MEAN it's *not* WoW.

People keep countering with "level cap" arguments - yet not once in this thread did I say anything about making the level limit 40. I simply countered someone's argument that as a player, you need some sort of feeling of progression, or the game will die. Changing the level limit is JUST ONE METHOD. I didn't say it was the RIGHT one.

I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself - but if you look at the state of the game AS IT IS RIGHT NOW - tell me it's not "grind". Tell me that the vast majority of players are not involved in some aspect of farming/grind. That the "story" became almost unimportant at this point. The only thing people care about is greed. So, grind grind grind.

There is ample evidence all over the game how it's currently playing out. The PLAYERS have devolved the game into grind - whether you *think* it should be all about "skill and intelligence" or not. The game *is* grind.

My ultimate question *AGAIN* is - what is ANet and the developers going to do to *FIX* what GW has become?

And stop with the whole "the game was intended to last only a month blah blah blah" because quite frankly, you're wrong. No REAL game developer designs a game expecting a player to play it for a month and quit, and move onto something else unless they are hacks. Are the deves at ANet hacks? If that was the case - why the holloween event? why the world championships? Why the updates? Why SF? Why the new "titan" quests added (that hardly anyone does because they lack "phat lewt")? Because they don't want you to go start playing WoW, and forget about GW. THEY want your brand loyalty. They want to give you NO excuse to find GW boring, and get entertained some other way. If that WAS their intent, their marketing weasels, their brand managers, developers, designers, their CEO, should all be fired and on the cover of whatever professional game design magazine they subscribe to as posterchildren on how NOT to make a game. To suggest otherwise is spoken obviously by someone that has never run a company before, or taken even a basic business economics course. it is ESPECIALLY TRUE for MMORPGs. They are, by nature, designed to capture and hold your loyalty. If they fail to do so, then they fail period. And no matter how you slice it, GW *is* an MMORPG. They even say so.

Recognize the problems GW has - and tell me what is going to compel their core audience (current owners of GW) to buy the next chapter? Getting another profession or two to grind through the wilds again? A couple new skills for existing professions that are nerfed just enough to act no more or no less powerful than existing ones? New armor that has no better stats (for fear of game balance) but *look* different? Same thing for weapons, shields, wands, staffs, scrolls, etc?

The ONLY thing as it stands right now is "a whole new story arc and new missions to get to the end of the chapter, setting up for the next chapter".

Let's put it this way:

Chapter two will (apparently) feature:

Two (a guess) new professions...does this mean they have to go through the whole presearing crap again? run though the wilds again? And that's going to be fun...how? I've done it with six different characters, do you think it got a bit boring after...I dunno...the third time around? If you haven't done all six professions - are adding two more going to help?

Additional skills for existing professions? In order to maintain game balance they will be just as nerfed as existing skills. Simply more of the same, IMO. If they care about game balance (and with all the nerfing, apparently it's priority #1) then the new skills can't be any more powerful than existng ones. How many different skills do you need to heal that aren't any more effective than existing ones? Or apply blind? or boost HPs? Or cause Degen? Remember, even the new characters - for balance considerations - can't be any more or less powerful than any other profession.

New armor, weapons, upgrades, artwork, textures, designs - yet (again) in the interest of balance, are not any stronger or different from existing ones? A max dmg bow will always be 15-28? Then it's no longer "new" it's just "different". And how is that compelling? Even more different armor sets that provide no different stats than exisitng ones? Cosmetic change only.

More "phat lewt"? See above. If it's not going to be fundamentally different from what I have now - why bother? Cosmetic again.

So, now we get to the new "missions". Since you're already level 20, the XP doesn't matter. The additional skill points for bonuses shouldn't be that big of an attraction - after all, you should have plenty of skill points already, as by the time you've gone trough chapter one, you've gotten enough skill points to buy everything and cap everything in your profession. The drops won't be much different from what you can get in any mission past ascention, so that's not a big draw. New elites to cap? again, just how many ways to cause a deep wound do you need? And once you cap them - then what? Your skill bar (apparently) isn't going to be different (again, balance). Right now, as I said, the vast majority of the people aren't playing the story - they are grinding themselves in SF, UW, FoW, Prophet's Path.

So that only leaves the story - and as I said, the playres right now aren't worried about the story, they are worried about grind. It's been that way for months. Going though with a different character is simply just a way to get them to the higher areas to grind some more. That's why runners are so popular.

AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN, it doesn't matter what you THINK the game was intended to be, it is what it IS now - a grind. And given what seems to be the prevailing thought around here, chapter 2 isn't going to FIX this fundamental problem, since there isn't a compelling reason to buy it except to rush through the story so NEW farming/grinding areas can be discovered. Once you've seen the end of the movie, all you have left is the box of bon bons - and those bon bons better be good.

It is what it IS. And I hope ANet finds a way to make it NOT what it currently is, that chapter 2 brings MORE.

Or GW is going to die.

And note I provided not ONE single argument for or against raising the level cap limit. That is NOT the point of this post, so quit bringing it up when you're posting a counter argument.

My posts are too long, people simply will skim over them and say "OMG NO LVL 40 N00B STFU K THX BY".

But of course, at this point I could care less. My comments are directed at ANet anyway, really.

Loviatar · Nov 29, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Funny - ANet's own website claims it's a MMORPG. It's marketed as a MMORPG without monthly fees. It PLAYS like a MMORPG but simply instanced - instanced to reduce bandwidth and server costs.

.

considering i quoted from the GW site itself and they go out of their way NOT to market it as an MMORPG either you are reading uninformed reviews or are simply wrong.

again a direct quote from Arenanet GW site

tell me how that is marketing it as an MMORPG

Quote:

Quote:
Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game). Guild Wars was designed from the ground up to create the best possible competitive role-playing experience

Quote:

Quote:
Guild Wars has some similarities to existing MMORPGs, but it also has some key differences. Like existing MMOs, Guild Wars is played entirely online in a secure hosted environment.

EDIT FOR THE LINK GAME DETAILS

http://www.guildwars.com/faq/default.html#details

The Holy Stewy · Nov 29, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Whatever they do I hope they add a Dueling Arena Where you could place bets and stake stuff.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Nov 29, 2005, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Mimi, just go play a different game. This clearly isnt the game meant for you. You're trying to change a game that's meant for a different audience.

Oh and I have never grinded for faction. I just play PVP because I like playing it, and the faction comes fast and furious because I'm not playing PVP JUST for the faction. So don't tell me that there's grind in every aspect of the game. Grind only comes when you're FORCED to do something over and over. Much of the grind in GW is gone now, thanks to improvements.

Takeko Nakano · Nov 29, 2005, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Holy Stewy

Whatever they do I hope they add a Dueling Arena Where you could place bets and stake stuff.

I can just imagine the fight fixes, where people "take a dive"

Zaklex · Nov 29, 2005, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

It is what it IS. And I hope ANet finds a way to make it NOT what it currently is, that chapter 2 brings MORE.

Or GW is going to die.

I have a suggestion for you, quit now while you're ahead and don't come back. I know plenty of people that don't play it the way you describe, that actually do go through the story with each and every character.

I personally have yet to farm for anything in this game, and I've been playing since the day before release, with maybe a total of 3 weeks of not having played it. I personally think you're grasping at straws as for what they can do with chapter 2 in regards to balance and professions, with introducing new items, etc., but the only way you'll find out is to wait and purchase it now won't you.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Nov 29, 2005, 11:00 PM // 23:00

What annoys me about people like Mimi is that whenever they don't like a game they assume others don't and therefore the game will die. Basically it's "I dont like this game so it will fail!"

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 29, 2005, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaklex

I have a suggestion for you, quit now while you're ahead and don't come back. I know plenty of people that don't play it the way you describe, that actually do go through the story with each and every character.

I personally have yet to farm for anything in this game, and I've been playing since the day before release, with maybe a total of 3 weeks of not having played it. I personally think you're grasping at straws as for what they can do with chapter 2 in regards to balance and professions, with introducing new items, etc., but the only way you'll find out is to wait and purchase it now won't you.

Last time I checked, I'm allowed to express my OPINION, after all, that's what message boards are for, eh? It's also backed up with plenty of self observed evidence, SINCE I HAVE PLAYED THROUGH THE GAME WITH EVERY CHARACTER - a point you failed to catch.

The most populated areas in the game are (in no particular order):

Tombs
Arenas
TOA/UW/FOW
War Camp/Footprint/SF

And common farming areas outside of Augury Rock and Ember Light Camp.

Oh, and Beacon's Perch - all filled with folks begging for runners to Droknar's.

So, just what part of "playing the story" do these areas encompass? Zero?

EDIT - I forgot LA - the place to sell all of your grind goodies.

-Loki- · Nov 29, 2005, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Two (a guess) new professions...does this mean they have to go through the whole presearing crap again? run though the wilds again? And that's going to be fun...how? I've done it with six different characters, do you think it got a bit boring after...I dunno...the third time around? If you haven't done all six professions - are adding two more going to help?

No, it doesn't. They have already said you would be able to create a PvE character at level 20, and just play the chapter 2 stuff, or start a character from scratch. It's up to you.

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 29, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

What annoys me about people like Mimi is that whenever they don't like a game they assume others don't and therefore the game will die. Basically it's "I dont like this game so it will fail!"

Well, gee, since I have played over 1,000 hours and have purchased three (yes three) copies of the game, I'd say you were a tad off in your assesment of how I felt about it.